Author Topic: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?  (Read 2957 times)

Francois

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Today, mom gave me a few really old negatives to scan. And when I say old, I mean really old!
Those date back to around 1906, so lets just say they were extra crispy cellulose.

So the first one is the family business. And the rest are of the church fire in my mom's village. The fire was started by some disgruntled indians about some religion thing. Lets just say they didn't like the Roman Catholic church... and they meant business. In those days, there weren't any firefighters in the village so a few buckets and people relaying them couldn't tame the flames.

My great great grandfather worked to rebuild this as a mason.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

astrobeck

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 07:50:47 PM »
What an absolute treasure...is the fsmily husiness building still standing

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 09:10:15 PM »
Sadly no. My granddad closed it in 1976 because he was sick and nobody picked up the flame. I must admit that it was a pretty tough time for them. A shopping mall opened in the next big city and the local bus company started taking people to the mall for shopping days. Suddenly it was much cooler to go shop at the mall than it was to do business with local family owned businesses that had been there for decades.

I still remember the old restaurant/sporting goods store... I was just three but I just loved taking the trikes for a ride around the place and sitting on the very tall ball bearing stools to drink a cola :)
There were newspaper boxes for papers that don't exist anymore (like the Star Weekly).
And he had a Kodak display in the front.

Now, the building looks nothing like it used to. The new owner covered the venerable red brick building with tacky brown aluminum siding and replaced the beautiful French windows with smaller aluminum frames. They converted it into a low brow convenience store. A real massacre for a building that was over 100 years old.
Just thinking about what it's become still makes me want to cry  :'(
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Bryan

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2016, 09:59:24 PM »
So the store was in business for at least 70 years?  That's impressive!  I like the church photos, they look creepy. 

There is a product I use for cleaning 8mm movie film that helps with old dried out film, it's called FilmRenew.  If the film is really dried out you can soak it in the FilmRenew for a few days to give it back some of its flexibility.  I have used it on black and white and Kodachrome from as old as the 1930's with good results.  You can also use it as a cleaner.  It does have some lubricant in it for movie film though.  I'm not sure how it works with film from 1906 so I would be careful.  There may be a similar product out there for old negatives like yours. 

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2016, 10:32:30 PM »
I know places that specialize in conservation have some stuff that they use to keep them from getting worse, but I have no idea what it is.
I'll have to google filmrenew to see if it's compatible with nitrocellulose films.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Adam Doe

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 03:06:17 AM »

Francois, what a great look back into the past. Are there any more negatives left to scan? It would be great to see them. Also, what village was the fire in?

clagom

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 01:24:33 PM »
Amazing story, and photos! Thanks for sharing :)

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 02:35:02 PM »

Francois, what a great look back into the past. Are there any more negatives left to scan? It would be great to see them. Also, what village was the fire in?
The fire is in the town of Oka, Quebec, Canada.
You can check it out on Google earth, but all you'll see is a village that's been slowly degrading over the years.
I currently have hundreds of such negatives, so scanning them all will take some time, especially since very few of them are on 120 or 620. For these I had to lay them flat on the glass and just hope for the best. I also have some on a format close to 4x5...these will need to be scanned I. Two shots and stitched.

To know where those pictures were taken, just find the church that's next to the lake, go across the street on the street that drives right into the lake and my grandpa's restaurant was the building that's second from the corner where the roads cross. It's just in front of the park on l'Annonciation street.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

SLVR

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 04:05:10 PM »
cheese.

Terry

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 04:32:35 PM »
Francois, I've used filmrenew to good effect on some old movie film from the 1940s.  It might well work on your negs, but you should know that it's highly volatile (my bottle of it simply evaporated over the course of a number of years although tightly capped), highly flammable and highly toxic!

Bryan

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 06:43:30 PM »
Francois, I've used filmrenew to good effect on some old movie film from the 1940s.  It might well work on your negs, but you should know that it's highly volatile (my bottle of it simply evaporated over the course of a number of years although tightly capped), highly flammable and highly toxic!

I use mine outdoors and I let the film dry in an outdoor cupboard.  These are the instructions for it:
http://moviecraft.tripod.com/filmclean.html

This is where I purchase it (about half way down under "FILM CLEANERS & PRESERVATIVES"):
http://moviecraft.tripod.com/supplies.html

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 09:14:16 PM »
I did a bit of research on the subject and while FilmRenew does give a bit of flexibility back, it can't slow down the degradation of the film.
Here are two very good articles I found on the subject... and one of them is from archivists that work for the US government, so they must know what they're doing.
http://cool.conservation-us.org/byauth/messier/negrmcc.html
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/film.html

Strange thing is, when at high degrees of degradation, nitrate film can self-ignite at temperatures around 100°F... not very hot when you consider it. I would have expected ignition point to be higher than that. Lucky I don't live in Arizona and store them in a garden shed!
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Bryan

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 09:35:53 PM »
Strange thing is, when at high degrees of degradation, nitrate film can self-ignite at temperatures around 100°F... not very hot when you consider it. I would have expected ignition point to be higher than that. Lucky I don't live in Arizona and store them in a garden shed!

That's scary, maybe you should put them in the freezer.  The freezer will help to slow down deterioration but you want to make sure they are dry, the ice crystals can damage the image.  I read an article by Kodak a while back that gave the ideal temperature and humidity to best preserve film.  I don't remember what temperature it was but it was around freezing.  8mm film was never made with nitrate film, it has always been "safety film".  Even back then they were probably concerned for the safety of people storing nitrate film in their homes. 

Ed Wenn

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2016, 12:08:00 AM »
Wow! Cool old family photos and a discussion about self-igniting film. A perfect ten!

Francois, my family also had a village store (a combination butcher and green grocer) which was run by my grandfather until he retired in the 1980's.

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2016, 03:15:24 PM »
Wow! What a coincidence!
Now it would be fun to see old pictures of that :)

As for degrading film, I had a weird experience yesterday when I opened an old breadbox filled with old color negatives. In the box was a very strong vinegar smell. I mean strong, much stronger than fixer. It was choke on the stench strong.
Looking to see where it came from, I found three old x-rays that date back to the 1950s that were in a very advanced state of decomposition.
The vinegar smell tells me that they were shot on cellulose acetate film (acetic acid) and the image on the was barely visible. But the strangest thing is that the surface had taken a crocodile skin texture. I really should have taken a picture before putting it in the trash...
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Bryan

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2016, 03:41:13 PM »
Wow! What a coincidence!
Now it would be fun to see old pictures of that :)

As for degrading film, I had a weird experience yesterday when I opened an old breadbox filled with old color negatives. In the box was a very strong vinegar smell. I mean strong, much stronger than fixer. It was choke on the stench strong.
Looking to see where it came from, I found three old x-rays that date back to the 1950s that were in a very advanced state of decomposition.
The vinegar smell tells me that they were shot on cellulose acetate film (acetic acid) and the image on the was barely visible. But the strangest thing is that the surface had taken a crocodile skin texture. I really should have taken a picture before putting it in the trash...

VS or Vinegar Syndrome will infect other films as well and there is no cure.  You can slow it down by cleaning the film and putting it in cold storage.  Keep it far from your other films, it will jump from film to film.  I don't know if they still make them but Kodak used to sell gas scavenger packets that would absorb the acid gas.  This helped to slow it down but, like I said, there is no cure.  I put the gas scavenger packets in with some of my movies even if they don't have the vinegar smell.  This is one reason why it's recommended to allow the film to breathe, being stored in a sealed container allows the gas to jump from film to film.  In the case of movie film it infects the entire reel. 

Kodachrome is probably the most stable film but even it can get VS.  Some of the cheap film, like the type you would buy commercial movies on in the store before VHS tapes were available, suffered degradation far worse than Kodachrome.  The image would fade to red and they were more prone to VS.   

There have been many discussions about this over at the 8MM Forum, just search for Vinegar Syndrome.
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 03:46:36 PM by Bryan »

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2016, 06:30:30 PM »
I went hunting through the garbage can to get the film out to take a picture of what remains of the film.
I really wanted you all to see this as it's just too weird in a way.
I will call this a PSA, store your films properly!

Here's what degrading Cellulose Acetate looks like. I managed to date the film back to 1958. I have no idea about how it was developed or anything else.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Bryan

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 08:34:22 PM »
Wow, that is totally gone Francois, I've never seen it that bad. 

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 08:42:31 PM »
There were three sheets in the box. Two barely have an image on them, the third is completely black. The emulsion is peeling off the base in many spots and it has no flexibility.
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 09:12:55 PM »
OK, Had time to crack the vault open and get a few images out.
I have a ton of images from people we don't know. Thing is, my grandfather had a deposit for people who wanted to get their films developed and many people just dropped the film and never came back to pick it up. So grandpa had to put up the bill for those people and ended-up having a ton of prints that have no relation to the family. Here are three of them.
A landscape (scanned from a 127 negative)
A guy in a hunting camp.
A guy in a bowler hat...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 09:15:47 PM by Francois »
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.

LT

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2016, 10:51:14 AM »
These are all fantastic Fraincois. Love them all. Really important find. I love the guy in the bowler. He looks cool. I wonder what happened to his feet? He looks like he shouldn't be able to stand up?
L.

Francois

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Re: What do you do when mom gives you some really old negatives?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2016, 02:01:10 PM »
I think he was probably imitating Chaplin... this was in 1931 if I remember (the date was stamped by the lab on the back using a rubber stamp)
Francois

Film is the vinyl record of photography.