Author Topic: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN  (Read 9700 times)

Peter84

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-DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« on: August 20, 2014, 09:07:05 AM »
Saw this floating around Twitter this morning, sad news....

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/bw400cn/main2.jhtml?pq-path=13402

I've used this film a couple of times but for some reason it never stuck.... been on the tri-x wagon but it's always sad when another film bites the dust. Anyone here using it (a lot)?

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 09:14:03 AM »
There's always XP2

Indofunk

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 10:02:03 AM »
I tried it once, and hated it. But I think I got the exposure off or something. Anyways, as Gary says there's always XP2 if you absolutely NEED a C41-process B&W film, which I think is kind of silly these days anyways, especially now that all the shops with C41 machines are closing up.

BTW, XP2 develops GREAT in Rodinal 1:100 (for example here and here). Unfortunately, $7 a roll is a bit too much to pay for a B&W film, especially when Tri-X costs half that :)

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 12:33:21 PM »
........and there's Fuji's version of 400CN

I like the C41 processable B&W films as there's no shortage of C41 processing labs down here in SE England / London - and I've not really got time to do my own delevloping as yet.

Sorry to see Kodak stopping BW400CN, though..... :(
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 12:36:40 PM »
I tried it once, and hated it. But I think I got the exposure off or something. Anyways, as Gary says there's always XP2 if you absolutely NEED a C41-process B&W film, which I think is kind of silly these days anyways, especially now that all the shops with C41 machines are closing up.

BTW, XP2 develops GREAT in Rodinal 1:100 (for example here and here). Unfortunately, $7 a roll is a bit too much to pay for a B&W film, especially when Tri-X costs half that :)
I have developed both in Rodinal and they look good only because I was given 20 roll from Ilford

Late Developer

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 12:44:06 PM »
Peter R is a fine exponent of XP2 and has been able to get some beautiful tonality out of it.  I have used it a fair bit and really like it - though I've found it can be a bit contrasty.  That could be where I have it processed, of course, but Peter recommended that I shoot it a bit shy of box speed - so I shoot it at 320 ISO these days.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

Aksel

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 01:24:11 PM »
I this keeps other films alive and make them more resilient then that´s great news in my opinion.
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Rafael Morales

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 02:32:50 PM »
It is sad. It makes the bean counters look for more things to cut.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 02:34:47 PM by Rafael Morales »

Francois

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 03:00:20 PM »
I've got a few rolls in my freezer but for some reason never found the need to use them.

Thing is it's so much cheaper to process regular B&W than C-41... I think that's what most film photographers who use B&W also think.
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SLVR

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 03:32:26 PM »
Not sure how I feel about this one. I never actively used that film. But I feel as though it was a great film to get people introduced to BW film or shooting film. I won't miss it.

HOWEVER Kodak Alaris should be restructuring. Thats what we were told. This should include restructuring film manufacturing processes. Im sure that they are still using machines meant to crank out film to match demand for what it was back in the 90s. Ilford seems to be doing just fine, why can't Kodak???

Peter84

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 03:58:47 PM »
But I feel as though it was a great film to get people introduced to BW film or shooting film. I won't miss it.

A couple of years ago I popped one of these films in my eos300v for a party, had it send out for developing, so Yes on the introduction to BW film but I then discovered the magic of home developing with rodinal and lot's of Tri-x and plus-x, can't remember the last time I loaded a camera with this film. and indeed when I send out a roll it tends to cost me around €20-25 for the whole works (film, developing, scanning, printing etc.)
When I do it myself it's €5 for the film and maybe half a € for chemicals.

Indofunk

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 04:08:23 PM »
I only used XP2 before I started home developing, because at my local "cheap" developers, C41 was $2 a roll and B&W was $5 a roll.

Now with home developing, C41 costs me about $2.50 a roll and B&W is probably a few cents :)

Bryan

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 04:10:59 PM »
Not sure how I feel about this one. I never actively used that film. But I feel as though it was a great film to get people introduced to BW film or shooting film. I won't miss it.

HOWEVER Kodak Alaris should be restructuring. Thats what we were told. This should include restructuring film manufacturing processes. Im sure that they are still using machines meant to crank out film to match demand for what it was back in the 90s. Ilford seems to be doing just fine, why can't Kodak???

The whole bankruptcy process with Kodak was confusing but as I understood it Kodak Alaris does not manufacture film, that is still handled by Kodak.  Kodak Alaris sells consumer film which is manufactured by Kodak.  I'll bet somewhere in that agreement is a minimum order quantity.  I believe Kodak still manufactures and sells non-consumer film like the cine film used in Movie theaters that have not switched do digital.  yes, there are still some outside the US but they are going away as well. 

imagesfrugales

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 04:47:49 PM »
This is a sad story. Really sad. Besides the C41 thing there's another one much more important to me. We don't have many fast films anymore and the BW400CN was the finest grained EI 1600 film, excellent reciprocity behaviour, and with with outstanding results in Caffenol. Furthermore the film is available here at the big drugstores for less than 5 EUR, no shipping coast, just grab one in the nearest shop. Sad sad story ........

Example: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/imagesfrugales/32172241
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 04:53:43 PM by imagesfrugales »

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 04:56:56 PM »
Some of my XP2 in Rodinal





400 CN in Rodinal




Bryan

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2014, 05:52:03 PM »
This is Ilford's response:
Quote
Following the recent announcement that Kodak Alaris is discontinuing KODAK PROFESSIONAL BW400CN Film ILFORD PHOTO can confirm that there are no plans to discontinue ILFORD XP2 SUPER. This product continues to be in free supply throughout the world from ILFORD PHOTO Distributors and Photographic Retailers, and is available in 35mm and 120 formats as well as a 35mm Single Use Camera.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=191

Francois

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2014, 09:12:55 PM »
Not sure how I feel about this one. I never actively used that film. But I feel as though it was a great film to get people introduced to BW film or shooting film. I won't miss it.
I remember when this film came out. It was mainly geared towards wedding photographers. It does give very nice skin tones and has absolutely no grain (well, dye spots are not really grain). It can be enlarged quite a bit, it easy to get processed along side a bunch or rolls of color stock...

But since few people care about shooting weddings, I can understand why nobody here cares much about it.
Francois

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SLVR

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 09:42:52 PM »
My reasoning is when trendy people want to start shooting film they automatically think about black and white. Since new filmies likely don't have a darkroom or even know the difference between C41 BW and traditional BW they just choose whatever BW film is available. BW400CN is a staple at most blacks for just those people who want to shoot BW but don't really know anything about BW.

I did it when I was in my early days of film.

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2014, 10:23:07 PM »
One thing I find to be a shame about it is that they never made it into a cine film (or better yet, modify the formula just a bit so that it could give a positive image in regular C-41 or ECN-2 chemistry). That would have been so much fun...
Francois

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KevinAllan

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2014, 10:41:11 PM »
I haven't used BW400CN but I do shoot some XP2 and develop it in the Digibase C41 kit in a jobo processor, even though the costs for B&W chemicals would be cheaper, and there are many cheaper conventional BW films. However, my reasoning is that I'm running the Jobo anyway, want to have a high enough throughput so the chemicals don't go off before  they have processed their theoretical number of films, and if I've got both BW and C41 film to process then it's convenient to run one processing cycle instead of two.


Late Developer

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 09:14:23 AM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 09:21:07 AM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
Why pay to have B+W developed it doesn't take long in the kitchen,  I use a bag but am getting a calumet changing tent

Late Developer

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 12:19:11 PM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
Why pay to have B+W developed it doesn't take long in the kitchen,  I use a bag but am getting a calumet changing tent

I am familiar with how to process B&W film and the time required. As of this point in my life, it takes longer than I have available to set up the kit, do the processing, drying, etc.  Therefore, it's either pay to have processed at a lab, or shoot digital.
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2014, 12:22:56 PM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
Why pay to have B+W developed it doesn't take long in the kitchen,  I use a bag but am getting a calumet changing tent

I am familiar with how to process B&W film and the time required. As of this point in my life, it takes longer than I have available to set up the kit, do the processing, drying, etc.  Therefore, it's either pay to have processed at a lab, or shoot digital.
I couldn't let others develop mine they don't know how ive shot it, if I want it contrasty plus it's too much fun

Late Developer

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 05:09:36 PM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
Why pay to have B+W developed it doesn't take long in the kitchen,  I use a bag but am getting a calumet changing tent

I am familiar with how to process B&W film and the time required. As of this point in my life, it takes longer than I have available to set up the kit, do the processing, drying, etc.  Therefore, it's either pay to have processed at a lab, or shoot digital.
I couldn't let others develop mine they don't know how ive shot it, if I want it contrasty plus it's too much fun
I agree, I'd much prefer to do it myself.  However, I have a good friend who is a professional photographer himself and has a lab in the camera shop he runs in the village next to mine - so he usually gets my custom and does a really good job with it for the price. When I retire (assuming I make it that far) I will have all the time in the world to do my developing and, hopefully, a bit of printing....
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

gsgary

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2014, 05:13:58 PM »
.....woah there, hang on a minute. I actually care quite a lot about losing any mainstream film stock. I'm one of those filmies who doesn't have a darkroom - but I was developing B&W in the mid 1970s.

Don't be so dismissive about C41 processable B&W. Whether it's Neopan, Kodak or Ilford, if it gets (or keeps) people shooting film, it's a bloody good thing, in my book.  If I didn't have access to this type of film stock I'd have two choices - shoot colour and convert to mono (not ideal) or shoot traditional B&W and pay a LOT more to get it processed.
Why pay to have B+W developed it doesn't take long in the kitchen,  I use a bag but am getting a calumet changing tent

I am familiar with how to process B&W film and the time required. As of this point in my life, it takes longer than I have available to set up the kit, do the processing, drying, etc.  Therefore, it's either pay to have processed at a lab, or shoot digital.
I couldn't let others develop mine they don't know how ive shot it, if I want it contrasty plus it's too much fun
I agree, I'd much prefer to do it myself.  However, I have a good friend who is a professional photographer himself and has a lab in the camera shop he runs in the village next to mine - so he usually gets my custom and does a really good job with it for the price. When I retire (assuming I make it that far) I will have all the time in the world to do my developing and, hopefully, a bit of printing....
When my son stops coming back from the army at weekends his bedroom will be my darkroom, its been about 4 years since I was in a real darkroom making a print
Just found a scan of last print i made

« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 05:23:01 PM by gsgary »

imagesfrugales

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2014, 11:43:25 PM »
Frankly speaking I find the reaction of Ilford is disgusting in the case of Kodaks misfortune.

Hi there, your mummy just died? Don't worry, I'm your new mummy, just throw even more of your money into my throat.

Sorry folks, Ilford makes nice films but is not the Redeemer.

Says an angry imagesfrugales.

figure in the dark by imagesfrugales, on Flickr
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:13:17 AM by imagesfrugales »

tkmedia

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 03:27:55 AM »
I found this easier to scan as it can work with ICE.
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Indofunk

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 03:43:48 AM »
Just found a scan of last print i made

The thing I love most about it? (other than EVERYTHING) "Taken by me" :)

Also, LOVE imagesfrugales' shot!

Francois

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2014, 03:02:04 PM »
I found this easier to scan as it can work with ICE.
Quite true
Francois

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mcduff

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2014, 03:33:29 AM »
I don't really see Ilford's statement that way. I did not read anything really negative or gloating in their statement. There is nothing wrong in assuring c-41 users that they are intending to continue the production of their C-41 film. If a film I liked was being discontinued I would in fact appreciate hearing that the closest substitutes were going to stay in production. It is a reasonable business move (and reasonable business moves keep companies afloat and films alive) and it probably is good consumer education to remind folks that their are alternatives.


Frankly speaking I find the reaction of Ilford is disgusting in the case of Kodaks misfortune.

Hi there, your mummy just died? Don't worry, I'm your new mummy, just throw even more of your money into my throat.

Sorry folks, Ilford makes nice films but is not the Redeemer.

---------------
check out Don's stuff at http://www.flickr.com/photos/mcduffco/

ambaker

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2014, 03:42:29 AM »
It is sad to see any film discontinued.  It wasn't my favorite straight to print, from a retailer.  It always looked a little green to me.  But scanned and converted to true monochrome, it rendered nicely.

As mentioned elsewhere on the net, the big loss is that it was a "gateway drug" for new film users.  Something they could drop off at the mini lab, until they were hooked deeply enough to home process true B&W. 

As for Ilford.  I've seen comments from them in other forums.  The tone, as I read it, was B&W C-41 process film is not dead.  They also state that survival of Kodak is seen by them as a good thing.  I would have to agree.  If Kodak or Alaris wrap it up.  Even more will think film is totally gone, than think it now.  That might be the tipping point from which the industry might not recover enough to survive at all.


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Late Developer

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2014, 06:38:36 AM »
It is sad to see any film discontinued.  It wasn't my favorite straight to print, from a retailer.  It always looked a little green to me.  But scanned and converted to true monochrome, it rendered nicely.

As mentioned elsewhere on the net, the big loss is that it was a "gateway drug" for new film users.  Something they could drop off at the mini lab, until they were hooked deeply enough to home process true B&W. 

As for Ilford.  I've seen comments from them in other forums.  The tone, as I read it, was B&W C-41 process film is not dead.  They also state that survival of Kodak is seen by them as a good thing.  I would have to agree.  If Kodak or Alaris wrap it up.  Even more will think film is totally gone, than think it now.  That might be the tipping point from which the industry might not recover enough to survive at all.


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C41 processable film IS "true black and white".  If prints have a green tinge, that's because the lab's kit needs recalibration, not a fault with the emulsion.  I had that problem a few times when I used Neopan 400CN and the lab was happy to re-print when I showed them a chemical print made from Acros, via an enlarger as a comparison.  In fact, the lab owner thanked me as it also improved all the colour prints he produced.

The use of C41 isn't just a "gateway drug". I know photographers who use C41 processable as a specific choice because of their liking for its tonality and lack of apparent grain relative to other 400 ISO traditional B&W films; I even know one or two who use it and process it traditionally.  For the rest of us, whatever our reasons, it's good and it's convenient.

I don't see anyone on FW turning their noses up when anyone posts a photo which used C41 process for B&W.  In fact, I would bet a reasonable amount of money that few photographers could identify C41 film B&W prints apart from traditional ones "in the flesh" if they were produced to equally high standards to one another.

As you say (and as I've said earlier in this thread) losing any film stock is not a good thing. Thankfully, this time, there are alternatives. If Ilford or Fuji were to withdraw their equivalent stock, however, those who are unable to process traditionally (for whatever reason) would either not shoot film or they'd have to shoot colour film and convert that to mono - which is not as easy as it sounds to get a good result, and you have to have the right software. Not a cheap option.

Many of us shoot digital as well as film - and let's not kid ourselves, the quality of digital sensors and software (different "quality" admittedly) is ever improving.  This isn't a digital v film thread (nor must it become one) but, if film manufacturers keep making incremental reductions in film stock choices, some photographers will switch allegiances and that will just help increase the speed at which film usage reduces.

Personally, I have no problem at all with Ilford for saying "we're still here for C41 mono users" as they need to secure their own longevity. Film production is becoming even more "niche" and, if we don't like what Kodak is doing, we should be banging on Kodak's gates and persuading them to reverse their decision - or at least give some crumb of comfort that this isn't another step down the road to even more cuts. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 06:40:29 AM by Late Developer »
"An ounce of perception. A pound of obscure".

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2014, 01:44:01 AM »
I shot a couple rolls and was never overly impressed, but seeing some of the examples here really gives this film some credit. I have had a go a XP2 and thought that was much better. Could just all be how I was shooting it though.

John

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2014, 05:27:58 PM »
I tried the Kodak BW400CN and while it works well in a modern c41 lab it is lousy to wet print. The orange base makes it very difficult to print in a B&W darkroom. XP2 however is more versatile, scans well and wet prints well as it is more like a trad B&W film.

It's a shame yet another film has disappeared again.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:29:30 PM by John »

Phil Bebbington

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2014, 08:35:45 PM »
I used this film a lot and liked it very much - sorry to see it go.

As for the develop it yourself angle. I guess we all have our reasons why we do not develop our own - some may see it as fun, others may not.  I'm sure there are any number of pros and cons - kind of nice that we are all individuals and do what suits us. To me, as with Paul, C41 suits my needs and circumstances - I'm sure this will change at some stage. The loss of any film is a great shame.

We are all using film, surely that is what matters.   :D

Indofunk

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Re: -DISCONTINUATION NOTICE- RIP KODAK BW400CN
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2014, 09:18:27 PM »
I just got a couple of expired 35mm rolls of BW400CN in a lot, if anyone's interested. I'll probably just process them in Rodinal 1:100 if I do shoot them, but I'd rather give them to someone who likes the filmstock.