Author Topic: Cliché list  (Read 11094 times)

Theresa

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Cliché list
« on: March 08, 2006, 04:16:44 PM »
came across this recently in reference to a juried show I've entered in the past.
(http://weblog.slower.net/archives/28)

the juror says this about judging:

Generally desirable qualities

Coherence - Does it look like the same photographer took all three photos? In the context of the competition, it’s more important to show coherence than range.
Conciousness - Do you have an idea of what you are trying to say with your photography, and in your statement, do you describe how the work you submitted addresses that?
Bravery - Does your work reflect the effort you’ve put in to take exactly the photographs you wanted?
Brevity - Are your statement and bio both complete and brief? (Short paragraphs are easier to read.)
Availability - Do you have a website where the panel could efficiently see a little more of your work?
Format - We review the submissions in a web browser, so you should submit high quality JPEGs (not TIFF). There’s no need for them to be more than 900 pixels on their longer dimension. That means your file sizes should be no more than about 500KB.

Subject matter

Obviously what you choose to photograph is personal and subjective, and all kinds of subject matter is fair game for the competition. But there are certain genres and subjects which I think place a greater burden on the photographer in terms of originality. They’re submitted often.

Diptychs or other multiple presentations where the photos do not have a direct relationship to one another. Steer clear of juxtaposition for its own sake.
Parking lots, lonely shopping carts, gas stations
Floral still-lives
Suburban emptiness
Eerie night photography
Beds: empty, unmade, and so on
Moody (nude) self-portraiture
Meditation on illness or death of a family member
Women’s shoes
Rigorously documentary travel photography

Again, this is not to say that any of these things cannot be done, but that they are more difficult to photograph in a way that makes an impression. If this is your terrain - actually, whatever your terrain - it is incumbent on you to be aware of genre cliche and to avoid/subvert/surpass it.


I was most interested in that last bit.  wondered what you think the cliché images in your terrian are?  maybe if we compile a good list of clichés, we can all be more aware of them as we're shooting.  (btw, I entered diptychs to the last juried show I was turned down for.  in my defense, they were at least directly related to each other)

in toycamera work, I think some are portraits of children and carnivals (open or closed for the season)

LT

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 05:59:04 PM »
wondered what you think the cliché images in your terrian are? 

erm, good question ... I'd have to say Boats, waterfalls, standing stones, castles, beaches and dogs - oh dear - looks like that's pretty much my whole repertoire!  ;D

Seriously though, I dont see anything wrong with cliche, at the end of the day.  We all sing from the same hymn sheet - it's not rocket science.  whoops there I go again!

really seriously this time, popular images are popular for a reason.  cliche isnt such a bad thing.  If i liek the way something looks, I'll have a go at photographing it.  Hopefully other people will like it too.
L.

RebekahP

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 06:13:05 PM »
Theresa, 

My cliche is portraits of children, especially when it comes to my toycamera work.  But that is what inspires me the most, my children.  I do try to push myself and not do traditional portraits but sometimes I can't help myself.  Rebekah

warren

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 06:46:45 PM »
That is an excellent subject for dissection. I know I'm guilty of it and I feel like I have to work through it and with it to see where I end up.
The funny thing is having worked for a commercial photographer for 8 years, and how many clients would walk in wanting the cliche with slight variation because "it worked for somebody else".

Similarly, Bob at www.notraces.com expressed some frustration over the use of Photoshop to create the fake shallow DOF that a view camera's shift and tilt allow for. Indeed cliche but sometimes useful and successful. The shift/tilt effect is used extensively in large format work (including mine), I've been very happy with the results from time to time but recognize that it's nothing new in the big picture. I think the photographs are compelling but indeed contain a cliche. Which begs the question when is cliche not a cliche?

I don't think I've helped in anything here but re-ask the same question and establish that shallow DOF and Shift/Tilt would fall under technical cliches.
Portraits of children (or child) are definitely in my cliche handbag. My son is my favorite subject. Having said that I don't think I'll ever avoid that cliche, don't think I've ever really subverted it, and I know I haven't surpassed it.
Urban decay/grafitti is definitely another one (guilty on both counts.)


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astrobeck

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 07:51:42 PM »
Great topic.
It may be simpler to list what is not a cliche!
In New Mexico, it's difficult to take a photo that's not obviously a knock off of something in the galleries around here.
And if you browse the Santa Fe workshops listed for this summer, it is apparent that cliches are what sell, because that's what they are teaching in the workshop.

It might be a do as I say not do as I do type thing.  At least that's the way I see the truth of it all.

Honestly I think it doesn't matter as long as your photography stands out above the rest.

When I look at one of Leon's boat photos, I don't see a cliche. I see an exqusite work of art.  It's not about the boat at all, even though it's the main character.

Hope this makes sense.


tread

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 08:16:39 PM »
bring on the cliched i say. as for me, i submitted 2 years in a row to Krappy Kamera in Soho...of the varied choices I sent, both years the pics of children were the juror's picks. part of being an artist for me is finding a unique way to present things that we all see everyday. as for cliched...portraits of the downtrodden, ominous skies, empty playground equipment, water, mountains, kids, old furniture outside, faceless and contorted nudes and strangers in the act of doing something banal...with that being said, there isn't a day that goes by that i don't see an interesting take on any of these so-called cliches. my guess is that most jurors have all these cliches and more in their own portfolios...i know i do.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 08:18:49 PM by tread »
check out my self-righteous crud at http://gotreadgo.blogtog.com/ i'm apologizing in advance.

Tammy

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 08:39:23 PM »
Me too.  I mean, I just looked at a roll this week that I could knock off almost everything on that list.  Except the moody nudee... :(

I still find that list of cliche interesting.  I love seeing a juxtaposed dyptich, or a kid done up in toycamera fare.  Pretty soon the whole blur thing will be cliche and we can toss our toys out the window.  I'm just learning how to use tilts and shifts with a view camera, and it's pretty much done so much in PS that I have to stop and wonder what the heck?  ???  ( I still think it's sexy, but not when it's done in PS).

Let's see.  I'll have to add signs and derelect buildings and old abandoned cars out along the roadside.

Ah heck. 

  :-\
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 08:42:52 PM by Tammy »

LT

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 10:01:13 PM »
When I look at one of Leon's boat photos, I don't see a cliche. I see an exqusite work of art.  It's not about the boat at all, even though it's the main character.

Aww becky, you're making me blush now  :-[
L.

db

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 10:53:25 PM »
be aware of genre cliche and to avoid/subvert/surpass it.


Yep, I agree it's important to be aware of the cliche, but you don't have to avoid it. I'm a big fan of subversion, but that also requires the viewer to be just as aware of the cliche, and to grasp what you are getting at.

Zoe

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 03:13:04 AM »
nude female with an apple representing Eve... enough already. lol

Susan B.

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 07:05:28 AM »

I don't think I've helped in anything here but re-ask the same question and establish that shallow DOF and Shift/Tilt would fall under technical cliches.


Warren just called me a technical cliche!  ::)

Good thing I like you Warren.   ;)

I don't care if that's women's shoes, men's shoes or dirty socks.
Just make it yours --- that's all that matters.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 07:09:09 AM by Susan B. »

Janet_P

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2006, 10:09:52 AM »
Dirty socks. Now there's the next subject for a collaboration  ;)

For me, subject matter is simply a case of what I have the access to taking; which is my kids, flowers, shopping trollies - they may well be cliches but they're there in front of me and I have an itchy trigger finger. Every now and again, from the depth of the cliches rises an unusual image that surprises me and I count it as a lucky break.

As for a list of cliches, let me look through my negs and I draw up a list  :)

Janet

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2006, 10:40:30 AM »
My photographic 'style' ( :D , yeah right!) is a product of club photography. So its pretty much all a cliche.

The thing is, as long as I'm having fun with it then I don't care too much. In the same way I'm about to get my first ever toy camera (a Holga for my birthday next week). The photos from it will probably go down like a lead balloon at club competitions but it doesn't matter. I'll probably take the 'cliche' type of toy camera shots as well. In my book having fun is what it is all about.  ;D

Women's shoes and dirty socks though. Really?? Perhaps by a blurred waterfall with a few floral still-lives chucked in for good measure. That's my weekend sorted then  ;)

eyecaramba

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2006, 03:38:09 PM »
Great topic.  I think cliches are game.  we are pretty much self-defensively staking out our claim to our portion of a very overdone mediuim.  But I think the idea of certain subjects placing an additional burden of expectation is a fair statement.

That said...  Women's shoes?!  I don't think I have ever seen an artistically intended shot specifically of women's shoes.  Commercial shots, sure but anyway... Funny.

I will add to the list, cemetery shots.  I take them, you take them, but they really need to stand out to contribute to the oeuvre.  And yeah, that's right, I just said oeuvre.  Probably didn't spell it right but that is not going to stand between me and my pretentiousness.  Oeuvre.

And as far as the state fair goes.  I can only hope I have seen my last image of the big swing thing, that flying swing chair ride.  As for nudes and flower shots.  I usually tend to ignore them also unless they are really special.

Gordon

« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 03:40:14 PM by eyecaramba »
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warren

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »
Quote
Warren just called me a technical cliche!  

Good thing I like you Warren.  

Good thing indeed!  :o

In my defense, I don't consider your style as the shallow DOF approach. Your art goes well beyond that, and you would be the perfect example of someone who has risen to the top and made something your own.

Whenever I see your work, I don't see technique first, I'm drawn into the image itself. The message, the mood, in essence, you.

I think ultimately that helps me define what I consider cliche and not. If I look at an image and the first thing I think of is "oh, urban decay" or "oh, cross-processing", it's hard for the image to reach me on any other level.

Same with Becky's response to Leon's work. There's no doubt that his printing is exquisite, but that's not the first thing I think of when I see his work.

Another example for me is Tread's photos of his boys. No, not his boys but his kids. After becoming familiar with his photos, yes, I recognize them as his kids but that's not what pulls me in. The intimacy and respect for youth in his photography hits me in the gut first thing.

Dang. I have the day off and that leads me to ramble and make reference to Treads' junk.



Ed Sukach

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2006, 04:19:37 PM »
Cliche's here are, mainly, photographs of the marshes ( Ipswich, Mass. is right in center of "Marsh Country").  Not that they are not well done, but the galleries have reached a saturation point many moons ago.
My most difficult subject is "Sunsets".  Beautiful, I love the colors ... all that, but after the 15,000th image it is excruciatingly difficult to do anything "new".

I've had some experience with "Juried Shows" ... and I can only describe them as a particular form of delusional insanity.  I have seen works that have been awarded "Best in Show" in one competition be declared "Not fit enough to be placed on the wall" of another show, two weeks later.  I have seen a color photograph win First place in Photography... with a comment from the judge that read, after translation, "Because it is ...BIG!!" - the Competitors broke out in laughter from that one.
I even remember one ... I don't like to "judge" other's work ... suffice it to say, "It was primitive"..., win "Best in Show, immediately after the Artist's  mother donated a couple of thousand dollars to the Art Organization running the show... 

Theresa

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2006, 04:40:54 PM »
nude female with an apple representing Eve... enough already. lol


nude females, period.  c'mon, you know you guys are just using photography as an excuse to pose nekkid women :D
and pensive closeups of old men.
and for infrared photography- that "lonely" park bench surrounded by white trees.  gag.
digital macro flowers. I still enjoy seeing the bugs, but they're probably on the list, also.
when I lived in Alaska, it was photos of the Mendenhall Glacier with field of fireweed in foreground.  but it regularly outsold everything else (good) in the gallery I was in.  tourists and locals alike.

for me, as a mediocre photographer with delusions of big city gallery representation, I don't want to walk in with a portfolio full of the cliche wthout at least knowing it. probably best for me to avoid it if possible.  even if my vaults are full of it.

Oeuvre- that's french for omelette, right?

Susan B.

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2006, 11:45:06 PM »

That said...  Women's shoes?!  I don't think I have ever seen an artistically intended shot specifically of women's shoes.  Commercial shots, sure but anyway... Funny.


G-
The honorable Keith Carter's shot of the little girl with that sparkler blowing up in her face---The title is Something And her New Pair Of Shoes---
Learned this week that was originally shot for a Gap shoes ad. But Keith bought Mexican sparklers by accident. He had no idea they'd blow up in his niece's face like that. Classic. Ended up, he decided he liked the shot so much, he didn't give it to the gap. he's sold a complete 35 of that edition. Bring on those shoes!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 11:48:35 PM by Susan B. »

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2006, 11:46:54 PM »
Quote
In my defense, I don't consider your style as the shallow DOF approach. Your art goes well beyond that, and you would be the perfect example of someone who has risen to the top and made something your own.

Whenever I see your work, I don't see technique first, I'm drawn into the image itself. The message, the mood, in essence, you.

Shucks Warren. And I was just kidding.
That's some of the nicest things anyone has said to me.
Honored.
:)

JOhn Reeves

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2006, 12:14:04 AM »
Oevre de cliche verite

Seems that most every shot I've already shot,or should have shot are the shots I want to take next. I've created my own cliche. There tends to be redundancy in a lot of my pics but I keep looking for more in the daily stuff I see. And thankfully Lawrence and its locale have given me so much stuff that I enjoy looking at that it feels good to record it. Does that make any sense?  . . . second beer, empty stomach, going to jury public artisits' qualifications for a new fire station inna minute - that's whut yer hearing . . .  It seems so ridiculous to say that the Kansas Landscape is amazing, but it is the best stuff I've lived in. It beats Houston and Chicago landscapes. Isolated objects in the 6x6 frame are where I find myself looking/seeking.

I look at my book now, and I think removing and possibly changing 6-8 of the photos will make it better. If you want a CD PDF of my book, I'll send it to you. Maybe that's a fun/fertile exchange medium. see the book http://www.lulu.com/content/143159

Oh I wanted to say that the idea/action of the local spring Prairie Burns is romantic and worth capturing on film, but dammit, EVERYONE TAKES 'EM. Walking down Mass Street I will see 5 -6 of them in shop/gallery windows. That's the local cliche. Maybe black and white is the medium of subversion for that tired pony.

Fondly and cliche'd to the max,
JOhn
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 12:18:20 AM by JOhn Reeves »
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Zoe

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 09:02:58 AM »
nude female with an apple representing Eve... enough already. lol


nude females, period.  c'mon, you know you guys are just using photography as an excuse to pose nekkid women :D


ah theresa... i do nudes of women, i'm not a lesbian, nor am i a man... so what's my excuse? :)

FrankB

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 09:22:45 AM »
If i liek the way something looks, I'll have a go at photographing it.  Hopefully other people will like it too.

I think that says it for me too. Whether the risk of being 'cliched' bothers you depends on whether you're shooting and printing to please yourself or to please other people. This is one reason why I wouldn't go into photography professionally (another reason being that I'd starve! ;D ).

Yes, a lot of subjects have been done to death. But not by me they haven't...

It's also worth noting that the original quote made allowances for the fact that even in cliched genres there will be some who still manage to achieve excellence.

Black and white waterfalls are ten-a-penny, but Les McLean can still make my jaw drop every day and twice on Sunday.
Childrens portraits are surely overused... ...and then you have Cheryl Jacobs.
Sunsets and dawns on Velvia, oh come on! (Unless it's by Robert Teague, that is!)
Flower still-lifes? John Blakemore (even the repro's are stunning. I've had the privilege of seeing the actual prints. Words fail.)

(Please note that the above list of photographers is inclusive not exclusive and serves as examples only!)

Oh, and Zoe? For future reference, your excuse is that your really rather good at it!  :)

Dave_M

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2006, 09:38:25 AM »
Yes, a lot of subjects have been done to death. But not by me they haven't...

 8) That says it all. Great quote.

FrankB

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 09:41:21 AM »
Yes, a lot of subjects have been done to death. But not by me they haven't...

 8) That says it all. Great quote.

I think it's a bit of a cliche, myself...!

 ;D

Dave_M

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2006, 10:01:07 AM »
Quote from: Zoe
theresa... i do nudes of women, i'm not a lesbian, nor am i a man... so what's my excuse? :)

Zoe - your Holga nudes are simply incredible! I saw a few over at apug a wee while ago and have just looked at your site - nowhere near the realms of cliche. If nudes are a 'cliched genre' then your photographs really turn that on its head.

Damn this place for inspiration overload!  ;D

Zoe

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2006, 11:00:20 AM »
Oh, and Zoe? For future reference, your excuse is that your really rather good at it!  :)

Quote from: Zoe
theresa... i do nudes of women, i'm not a lesbian, nor am i a man... so what's my excuse? :)

Zoe - your Holga nudes are simply incredible! I saw a few over at apug a wee while ago and have just looked at your site - nowhere near the realms of cliche. If nudes are a 'cliched genre' then your photographs really turn that on its head.

Damn this place for inspiration overload!  ;D

thanks very much... wasn't fishing for compliments, just trying to have some fun with Theresa... but I do appreciate that.

Theresa

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2006, 03:31:09 PM »
nude female with an apple representing Eve... enough already. lol


nude females, period.  c'mon, you know you guys are just using photography as an excuse to pose nekkid women :D


ah theresa... i do nudes of women, i'm not a lesbian, nor am i a man... so what's my excuse? :)

maybe the same reason I take pics of cemeteries even though I'm not dead? :)

it's something I like to do and somewhere I like to be.

and speaking of cliche work (the bad kind, not the groundbreaking kind)  here are some shots http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluecoyotelaughing/sets/72057594078870796/ I took at the Pogues concert last night.  they're average and digital so I only mention it for the possible fans and because I have a Pogues hangover.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 03:53:23 PM by Theresa »

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2006, 04:20:56 PM »
Me, I'm not above shooting most cliche type shots, if only to try to take an out of the ordinary view of a mostly overdone subject in my own work. Sometimes it works. Sometimes not. Personally, I find it a challenge to eek out something new out of the cliched. As far as my own pick of overdone cliches in the Windy City, The Bean and the Crown Fountain at Millennium Park are fast becoming one, though I'd say the biggest cliche of them all is the typical shot of the Chicago skyline from Adler Planetarium. So far I've managed to avoid taking that type of shot since it's so overdone and I frankly don't think that shooting that scene with my toys or my homemade lens doohickies would make much of a difference. Given my druthers, I'd rather hang around the Hammond, Indiana marina area and take shots of the Gary Steel Works. Far more interesting, IMHO.
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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2006, 04:29:43 PM »
and speaking of cliche work (the bad kind, not the groundbreaking kind)  here are some shots ... I took at the Pogues concert last night.  they're average and digital so I only mention it for the possible fans and because I have a Pogues hangover.

Did Shane manage to stand up for a whole set, or did he fall over at all - god he looks a state these days, and it's almost impossible to understand a word he says - not that it was that easy before!



L.

Theresa

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2006, 05:24:17 PM »

Quote

Did Shane manage to stand up for a whole set, or did he fall over at all - god he looks a state these days, and it's almost impossible to understand a word he says - not that it was that easy before!
Quote

made his weaving way through the whole show, two encores, and an entire bottle of brown liquor, as a matter of fact.  it was fantastic, actually.  40somethings to 20somethings all singing together.

nicolai_g

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Re: Cliché list
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2006, 03:03:56 AM »
Let's face it, we're all shooting the same stuff: people, animals, natural formations (plants, water, rocks), and artificial formations (buildings, clothing, toilets). We're all using cameras. What *isn't* cliche? Nothing! What I think matters is what we bring to and get out of them.

I don't even care about the fake tilt/shift thing: while I think it's annoying to see a rash of "hey, I got the effect!" examples of it, you can create just as pointless a photo with camera movements on film as you can in Photoshop. Same goes for fake vignetting, xpro, whatever. What annoys me about these rashes of work by people who all read the same tutorial or downloaded the same Photoshop action (or bought the same film camera) is that, in most cases, all they've got going for them is the effect. A crap photo with a special effect--achieved in-camera or in post--is still a crap photo, and dressing it up in an effect doesn't change that. (As a friend from North Carolina says, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t".) What matters to me is if you managed to ask or say anything with it, and that's rare with any technique or subject (most photos, regardless of the photographer, suck). OK, you got the look, be it T/S or wet plate collodion--now what? What are you communicating other than that? Does the look or subject  (flowers, nudes, homeless, etc.) serve a larger story or inquiry or is that the entirety of your statement?

I think *that's* what really determines whether something is cliche, in the bad sense, or not: whether you bring anything to it or simply do it as a rote matter of canonical form. This can happen not just with DLSR users, but with people with heaps of technical silver skill as well... there are scores of Zone-heads who have exposure and printing *down*, but instead of channeling that knowledge into something of their own, they spend their time trying to make a print whose technical execution Ansel Adams would approve of but forgetting about what I consider to be the important parts (this happens just as much with toys, pinholes, Lomos, alt process printing, and all the other stuff we think we're cool for using). On the flip side, a good photo is a good photo. I've seen (and taken) plenty of photos of [ostensibly] unconventional subjects using unconventional methods that are absolute crap and I've seen wedding, baby, and flower pictures that positively sing. To me, it's a matter of thoughtless "me-too"-ism vs. genuine exploration or expression.

All of that said, I think a lot of people *want* to take cliche photos. I wrote this to someone I've been emailing with after he commented about the awful HDR stuff that's been around lately just for the sake of doing HDR:

"I do think that you and I are coming from a different place with all of this than most people are. The more of other people's work I look at, the more I think that I have a *very* different idea of what makes a good photo than most people. Not a better or worse one, just very different. I think a lot of people, at least on Flickr, are aiming to replicate the styles that commerce says are good: stuff you see in Sierra Club day planners and on postcards. They're measuring themselves entirely by the yardsticks of others, which IME spells certain doom for any sort of genuine inquiry or exploration--but not everybody wants that because it's scary as shit.

I guess it depends on how big a box you put things in. I know and have read interviews with pastry chefs for whom flavoring their creme brulee with fruit puree is a radical act. This blows my mind, not because I think it's radical, but because the creative space they've put themselves in must be narrow indeed for that to seem crazy. To me, that's the equivalent of finally taking your camera off of P. But again, I guess stepping into real possibilities and away from certain validation (you'll always be able to find 20 people to say 'great DoF!' on that flower macro regardless of how good or bad it is) is scary."